Curse

Sleeper Service · Oct 29, 2007, 10:19 AM // 10:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

Backup DOES NOT equal true.

For below post: didn't say i am correct, didn't claim my statements is true, I state reasons why I think this proposal is unacceptable, and i did not say LOOK HERE, GRIND IS GOOD YOU SHOULD ACCEPT IT, now did I, I just don't want Anet to change what we have now. Also am trying to prevent anyone from input-ing their bias views and making statements like its true when its not.

what?

its my statement. its my opinion. i back my opinion with DATA, not some airy theoretical argumentation, nevertheless its an opinion.

Ill damm well INPUT my views here if i want, you can say they are wrong or whatever but at the end of the day....wheres your data? how are you backing it up? by saying that people who don't fall in line with your cohorts views are what...just wrong yeah?

Red Sonja, punctuation and paragraphs are your friends.

you say 55monks, I say Loot scaling. everyone was talking about it a while ago.

you say fun, i agree its about FUN. Fun for most people means playing the game not staring at some numbers crawl up some abstract ladder. If all you want is grind ....well go on! GRIND!!!!! grind for Gold!, Grind for items! ITS THE SAME MECHANISM. Insisting on forcing it on others is a tad strange though.

clearly some people find comfort in repeating the same actions over and over and over again. fine, for all i care you could do it for 24 hours straight,but just because you find it awesome does not mean that we find it even remotely interesting OR stimulating.

Apart from some fraction of the playerbase finding grind "fun" there is no REASON for it to be imposed on the majority.

pumpkin pie · Oct 29, 2007, 10:26 AM // 10:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeper Service

nope. account based titles would be a good thing and thats all there is to it really.

don't make statements like that then thank you very much.

happy days!

Sleeper Service · Oct 29, 2007, 10:33 AM // 10:33

edit. pointless conversation.

please, continue making a farce of everything that constitutes a debate.

pumpkin pie · Oct 29, 2007, 10:54 AM // 10:54

How is me pointing out that the statement you made falsely turn into me making a farce of debate:

for above post: definition of debate

Didn't know we are debating, since you say debate, you probably should know as an opposition I have to point out when my opposition make a false statements. What do you expect? Want me to just let you win the debate without a rebuttal?

freekedoutfish · Oct 29, 2007, 12:36 PM // 12:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

How is me pointing out that the statement you made falsely turn into me making a farce of debate:

for below post: definition of debate

Didn't know we are debating, since you say debate, you probably should know as an opposition I have to point out when my opposition make a false statements. What do you expect? Want me to just let you win the debate without a rebuttal?

The reason I left this thread>

There isnt a debate going on anymore. This thread has become nothing more getting your head bitten off it you disgree and dont sign it. Certain peple arent posting valid counter arguements and are just bashing anyone who might speak against them.

Solas · Oct 29, 2007, 12:39 PM // 12:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by wu is me

Its not like ppl can play all 9 of their characters at once -_-??? how is that a problem...the No of accounts with the titles remains the same.

But the number of Chars with the title is vastly increased.
i.e. The Un/Lucky and faction title tracks, there account wide yet i treat them as nothing, as since there account wide i just thorw em on my lv.1 that i just made and i play the game, if i could put a amx title on my lv.1 while i play that'd be nice adn seeing everyone walk around with that title in shing jea and kamadan that'd be nice....but it devalues the title alot....

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and geez... did you read the first part of my post??
I can't see how the titles would be devalued/made easier. If you maxed it across nine characters, you wouldn't b able to show it.. but if you grinded that same amount under the account based titles system, you could show off 9X the grind??? DOESN"T that make you grind hounds happy?????

and becomes 9 times devalued when accoutn wide....
IF the 4 eotn titles become accoutn based thats 4 points to KoBD (holds some value but no where near what it used have) so any protector title will get you KoBG, undervalue again.

The FAme RAnk is an example of this, i could classify this title as Grind, others may not thats their opinion, since its account iwde (for good reason) but seeing every 2nd person bambi in towns (seen it in pre) undervalues it,cool first time but after that meh

How Many people do you know that got any "Grind Based" title maxed more then once?
people get it once for the title and thats more or less it, they may get a high rank on other chars but doubtful that they'dmax it out more then 2 times.

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Okay, so there are incorrigible ale hounds in pre-sear, but surely workable? Whats been proposed here the removal of hugely limiting shackles on the way that we all play the game. Surely it would be worth a slight modification to the small demographic drunktard titles obtained in pre-searing?

Not sayign it woudln't be convieniat for some but it really cuts down on the potential game time imo

bilateralrope · Oct 29, 2007, 11:17 PM // 23:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

i think this right here is one of the main reasons poeple backfire at you for saying that.

they remember all those endless farmer posts opposing Anet at every step Anet has made so the casual player has more access to the nicer things at less time/gold spent.

typical earlier farmer post is make them earn it and if they are not willing or able to invest the time/effort/grind to earn it they dont deserve it.

we are telling that exact same crowd if you cant take the time and effort to earn it on that character you dont deserve it.

Spending the grind for vanity items is one thing because they don't effect your stats. But given that Guild Wars started off with player skill being more important that time spent playing and every time ANET has changed it people have complained.

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because they chose to use the storage so as to concentrate the benefit on one character

So why is it a good thing that the title only rewards one of the characters, when the others are the ones that actually do all the work ?

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note that titles were put in for the specific purpose of giving a goal and killing massive amounts of time .

making them accounts defeats that purpose and ANET made a decision on each before adding it.

So alter the points required for each rank and then you still have an identical time investment, but the benefits are spread around.

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why are they called *GRIND* titles except they are MEANT to take time

And why is it a good thing that the grinding directly effects a players stats, and therefore their ability to complete things ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talach_Ninneed

But if you played through the game normally, dungeons,VAnquishihg,quests etc. you'd eventaully reach that point by just playing. it'd take longer just like if you collected money through the game normally. i.e. i havent farmed or tried to farm deldrimer yet and i have rank 5 (26k) didnt take part in the bonus faction weekend i just finished the game and did some dungeons.(still onyl a small bit completed) and i did not hand in any book of dungeons or quests.

But what about the players who don't enjoy the areas that give the points ?

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More Money-> More SKills
meaning greater variety in build, chance to buy elite tomes, i.e. monk in desolation using elite tome to get SoJ, money made might. so he has better stats in one sense then another for 55-ing. (know you said armour and weapons just tought i'd put skills in)

On my characters I get all their primary profession skills, and only get secondary skills as I plan to use them (or for UAX). So far I have never had to farm gold to buy a skill. Sometimes I didn't have enough skill points, but once I got them I also had enough gold.

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Runes also help, sup vigor is an example,

Yes, rune prices are an area where your stats are effected by time spent playing, not your skill. It could do with some tweaking

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But its the process of doing the action, if i substituted the senario of a few missions ran to points farmed it would look like this imo:

The difference is that when doing the missions, you are only doing each mission once. For grinding up the points you are repeating an identical task multiple times.

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Isn't the main idea about getting rid of grind? i may find that an awful grind those few missions,( then then dzagonur and grand court and happy,greatest missions ever) yes but if i got the title on one char i wouldnt have to do them again either to get stats boost...sorry don't really understand.

But when you made a new character you knew that you would have to repeat the missions, so there isn't really anything to complain about here. Unlike characters that were made before the grind-based stat boosts were added.

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Yes but if they were accoutn wide imo thats 4-9 times as many characters that would would have the title then if it was char based.

Why is that a bad thing ?

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also lv.3 preseerers having the title maxed undervalues it,yes it is based on grind but what you consider grind may very form person to person

When a lot of players simply don't care about what title other people wear, I don't see much devaluation happening. And ANET can always alter the points required for each rank to keep the value the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

NOPE, that is ONLY YOUR OPINION, you do not represent the majority of the GW community to make that into a statement. it is still undecided if it is good, it could be bad, maybe very bad, THAT IS WHAT THIS THREAD IS HERE FOR.

So what kind of bad things might this bring about ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

Backup DOES NOT equal true.

But a person who backs up their argument with evidence is in a better position than a person who doesn't because you then have to either show the evidence is wrong or irrelevant just to bring him back down to the same position as the person without evidence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talach_Ninneed

But the number of Chars with the title is vastly increased.

And why is this a bad thing ?

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i.e. The Un/Lucky and faction title tracks, there account wide yet i treat them as nothing, as since there account wide i just thorw em on my lv.1 that i just made and i play the game, if i could put a amx title on my lv.1 while i play that'd be nice adn seeing everyone walk around with that title in shing jea and kamadan that'd be nice....but it devalues the title alot....

Even when other players simply don't care about your title ?
Even if ANET greatly increases the grind required per level of the title ?

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Not sayign it woudln't be convieniat for some but it really cuts down on the potential game time imo

Unless ANET increases the points required per rank. Though that would probably cause all the people with a single character to complain about having their grind increased, unless they are people who actually enjoy grinding.

Sleeper Service · Oct 29, 2007, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

How is me pointing out that the statement you made falsely turn into me making a farce of debate:

for above post: definition of debate

Didn't know we are debating, since you say debate, you probably should know as an opposition I have to point out when my opposition make a false statements. What do you expect? Want me to just let you win the debate without a rebuttal?

sure.

on one side we have people are presenting facts. on the other you have people saying "its like that" because they "know" its so.

you can refute all you want. but if theres no logic, hard evidence or substance behind it, just torturous complicated "gut feeling" explanations of how a mmorpg should be then...ok.

Its about as much of a "debate" as you can get between some dude that just wants to get on the tube and a book waving weirdo ranting about "gateways to hell".

pumpkin pie · Oct 30, 2007, 03:34 AM // 03:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by bilateralrope

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

Backup DOES NOT equal true.

But a person who backs up their argument with evidence is in a better position than a person who doesn't because you then have to either show the evidence is wrong or irrelevant just to bring him back down to the same position as the person without evidence.

I have 4 millions GW players backing me up who isn't complaining about the way the game is now as oppose to you theres 1 and (rough estimate of person signing this) maybe 20 other who think they should have all the title for free.

let see, hrmz 3,999,979 (could be wrong here with the zeros, but i think its 6 for millions) players vs 21 signatory (rough estimates). enough backup?

edited: didn't see this part you said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by bilateralrope

When a lot of players simply don't care about what title other people wear, I don't see much devaluation happening. And ANET can always alter the points required for each rank to keep the value the same.

players simply don't care about what title other people wear is not an indication that ANET should make all grind base title account wide.

In my opinion, I do not care what title other players wear because I would go with them on any mission if and when I feel like it, not because of the title they wear. With the hardship in mind of getting title, you enjoy the moment when you actually see someone with max title. if you make the title account wide, You are going to start seeing them tomorrow all over the usual players hang out. I for one do not want to see that happens.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeper Service

sure.

lol , there's one tiny problem, i don't agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeper Service

on one side we have people are presenting facts. on the other you have people saying "its like that" because they "know" its so.

you can refute all you want. but if theres no logic, hard evidence or substance behind it, just torturous complicated "gut feeling" explanations of how a mmorpg should be then...ok.

Its about as much of a "debate" as you can get between some dude that just wants to get on the tube and a book waving weirdo ranting about "gateways to hell".

there you go again with your FACTS, its not facts its your (lame) support materials.

Sleeper Service · Oct 30, 2007, 10:09 AM // 10:09

um yeah.

being unsure if there are 6 zeros in a million followed by failed comprehension, flawed logic AND contradicting oneself in the same post is a bit disturbing.

clearly you are about a billion levels higher than me. I'm going to veeeerryy carefully back out of this conversation now.

Solas · Oct 30, 2007, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by bilateralrope

But what about the players who don't enjoy the areas that give the points ?

When they made there character they knew that if they want an unnissicarly (spelling) rank in a title based on grind chances are they'd have to grind if they were very determined.

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On my characters I get all their primary profession skills, and only get secondary skills as I plan to use them (or for UAX). So far I have never had to farm gold to buy a skill. Sometimes I didn't have enough skill points, but once I got them I also had enough gold.

yeah, idont farm either, as i hate it... but that is my opinion, and you always having enough money works in your case but with 4 million copies of GW out the vast majority farm Alot and most of them are normally Low on Money, due to differant things.

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The difference is that when doing the missions, you are only doing each mission once. For grinding up the points you are repeating an identical task multiple times.

FAiled gyala around 13 times when i first got there mostly due ot pugs... many people failed GoM,GoP Raisu and Hells many times and were sick of it (luckily got ot past em on 2nd try), These missions take 20 min each, and are Mandatory to continue with the story.
BTW i find that missions are one of the High points of GW,really like most of them. They're just a good example imo.

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But when you made a new character you knew that you would have to repeat the missions, so there isn't really anything to complain about here. Unlike characters that were made before the grind-based stat boosts were added.

I Finished NF with rank 6 LB, and Gwen with rank 3 or somthing like that in deldrimir, titles are not nessicary, you can complete the games grand without them, if you find that spending 5+ Hours or more will make a massive differance to 2 hours of the campaign left by all means go for it, it is a completly optional title that gives a tiny reward, i'm rank 5(/10) by just doign the campaign and maybe 4 dungeons

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Why is that a bad thing ?

if 4 people had fow (a more or less grind based armour,unless your lucky) that'd be impessive, but if 9 had it, thats +125% increase in the amount of peopel with FoW, so not as impressive as before.

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When a lot of players simply don't care about what title other people wear, I don't see much devaluation happening. And ANET can always alter the points required for each rank to keep the value the same.

If other people dont liek my title grand, but its what i think of it that matters,only i know what i went through to get it. i.e. when i fisrt saw rank3 bambi i tought woah, i must get that, in the next few days i saw a ton of peopel spamming it so it diluted the value a bit, also i suck at pvp as i figured out..but i tried HA well after that tho.

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And why is this a bad thing ?

answered above a few lines

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Even when other players simply don't care about your title ?

above

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Even if ANET greatly increases the grind required per level of the title ?

yeah if they increased the amount of points per title i would feel it is just (as i sad early in thread) But finding the new max limit would be a prob, i would think maybe 500,000 to max for account,(thats maxing it on 2 chars?) but seeing as i havent played in 3 weeks due to tech probs my view of the title is distorted and would be inaccurate as i have no idea of the work that goes into the title now, would 100,000 LB points be alot for account wide title?

and what effects would it have of BoaBD?

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Unless ANET increases the points required per rank. Though that would probably cause all the people with a single character to complain about having their grind increased, unless they are people who actually enjoy grinding.

i an one of those such single chars, i use 1 char for titles, adn i have others that i paly for campaign, i'll only try adn get rep points for maybe 2 others as im thinking of making them 2nd mains. If the title was increased that'd be a ton of grind and i would feel peolpl woudl complain alot more as many woh have got there max grind titles would lose the max title and would have to grind more

BlackSephir · Oct 30, 2007, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talach_Ninneed

When they made there character they knew that if they want an unnissicarly (spelling) rank in a title based on grind chances are they'd have to grind if they were very determined.

Maybe this'll be a shocker for you, bu when I and many other people have created our characters there was absolutely no grind in GW and it didn't look like that there will ever be. Play Prophecies if you don't believe me.

Solas · Oct 30, 2007, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

Maybe this'll be a shocker for you, bu when I and many other people have created our characters there was absolutely no grind in GW and it didn't look like that there will ever be. Play Prophecies if you don't believe me.

i mean create them from present.
only joined 13 months ago so it was before my time but i heard about it.
but some people like to grind, some people don't your not forced to grind it jsut speeds it up dramatically,but it is a nice sized factor.

But it is an unnessicary title, can complete the game without it.

so you dis/agree with the rest?

lyra_song · Oct 30, 2007, 01:13 PM // 13:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

Maybe this'll be a shocker for you, bu when I and many other people have created our characters there was absolutely no grind in GW and it didn't look like that there will ever be. Play Prophecies if you don't believe me.

I remember when i started playing i made money simply by selling normal materials because it was a lot of material to make ascetics tattoo to monks in Droknars (the most popular monk armor at the time i'd say).

Absolutely no grind? Lets see...

Skill points...
refund points...
Good weapons (no cheap greenies...oh man...remember when Vamp mods were really expensive!?)
UAX'ing...(remember when skill costs kept climbing with every purchase?)
Balthazar Faction...
Fame...

I dunno...looks like a lot of grind to me. Of course...if you enjoy it, and don't really notice it, it doesn't feel like a grind at all.

Oh running...why were people running the game? Why were they skipping large parts of the game? I dunno but for me...maguuma jungle is a fricking grind...ugh...stupid spiders.

Wildi · Oct 30, 2007, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Grind is optional however many people will force themselves(soon or later once they have nothing to do) to get higher kurzick/luxon/lightbringer/sunspear/asura/norn/deldrimor/ or ebonvanguard title rank to get more out of pve skills, because these are the only non-cosmetical and useful titles, or simply because many skills are weak at low rank or are not worth using until you get to higher ranks to open up more possibilities and people will do anything to achive this aim.

The question is how easy/hard wants anet make it and the problem is people with multiple characters are penalized or have a disadvantage.
a. you can make titles character based, what will happen ? people will do quest/dungeon runs with characters they play to fill books until there is no tomorrow.
High asura, deldrimor & vanquard rank for necro, same for ele, high sunspear, deldrimor & norn for dervish and so on.. different builds require different titles and thats a lot of work. This way you keep people playing for a long time, but its not the best way isn't it.
b. or you can make titles account based, people will still do a lot of quest/dungeon runs but they don't have to waste time to do all that crap again with another character and can spend more time to do something else they like in gw.

common sense says b. is better

edit: oh looks like I forgot about useless titles, Lucky/Unlucky, Survivor, Drunkard and similar titles should stay character based because it makes more sense this way, while title ranks like Asura, Deldrimor, Ebon Vanguard, Norn should be account based like Kurzick/Luxon, but its too late anyway.

BlackSephir · Oct 30, 2007, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

I remember when i started playing i made money simply by selling normal materials because it was a lot of material to make ascetics tattoo to monks in Droknars (the most popular monk armor at the time i'd say).

Absolutely no grind? Lets see...

Skill points...
refund points...
Good weapons (no cheap greenies...oh man...remember when Vamp mods were really expensive!?)
UAX'ing...(remember when skill costs kept climbing with every purchase?)
Balthazar Faction...
Fame...

I dunno...looks like a lot of grind to me. Of course...if you enjoy it, and don't really notice it, it doesn't feel like a grind at all.

Oh running...why were people running the game? Why were they skipping large parts of the game? I dunno but for me...maguuma jungle is a fricking grind...ugh...stupid spiders.

Haha, you're comparing stuff like fame to shit like LB. It's obvious you have no idea whatsoever what's going on, but maybe you'll get someday. To help you, I prepared 2 questions. Does higher Hero rank make your skills better? And does higher [Lightbringer/Asura/Norn/Ebon Vanguar/Sunspear] make your skills better?

yar, pretty obvious.

Red Sonya · Oct 30, 2007, 04:32 PM // 16:32

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common sense says b. is better

Yes if you're a simpleton and have no drive to do things as intended by design. All I see is a few people who want to sit in the developers chair, but, didn't goto college to be able to do this. I see a few people who think because they spent a few dollars on a game that they deserve the right to make it like they want it. lolololololol Thankfully those guys at Anet did goto college and they know what is best for the ENTIRE community and not just a handful of forum hermits. )P

Solas · Oct 30, 2007, 05:14 PM // 17:14

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Originally Posted by BlackSephir

Haha, you're comparing stuff like fame to shit like LB. It's obvious you have no idea whatsoever what's going on, but maybe you'll get someday.

yeah, because there completly differant, 1 makes you use builds form wiki, and grind for days until you get the title while the other lets you farm repeatedly in pve...mm they are sort of the same...

and Human inteligence doesnt make it harder, just Xway to victory.
of corse that is imo of HA, Only really cared about when the odl favor system was active, didnt fow/uw just like seeing em, but now it means nothing.

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To help you, I prepared 2 questions. Does higher Hero rank make your skills better?
And does higher [Lightbringer/Asura/Norn/Ebon Vanguar/Sunspear] make your skills better?

Ahh,so i see why LB is useful, but the other one...mmm

Snow Bunny · Oct 30, 2007, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

Haha, you're comparing stuff like fame to shit like LB. It's obvious you have no idea whatsoever what's going on, but maybe you'll get someday. To help you, I prepared 2 questions. Does higher Hero rank make your skills better? And does higher [Lightbringer/Asura/Norn/Ebon Vanguar/Sunspear] make your skills better?

yar, pretty obvious.

You don't need LB/A/N/EV/SS skills to beat the game. You actually don't need them at all. You essentially need rank to get into an HA group. You people only want this so you can have KoaBD across 12 chars and satisfy your e-peen

You're the guy who constantly defends SP sins and says that they're not imba in the Gladiator's Arena. Nice work there

Attention Everyone: this guy has a lot of good ideas

korcan · Oct 30, 2007, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

Maybe this'll be a shocker for you, bu when I and many other people have created our characters there was absolutely no grind in GW and it didn't look like that there will ever be. Play Prophecies if you don't believe me.

so playing through prophecies for the fourth or fifth time with a different toon wouldnt be considered grind?

there has always been grind in this game.